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23 min read

Using a Data-Driven SEO Approach with Kyle Roof

Analysis and testing are key on-page SEO tactics that can significantly lift search engine rankings. 

Listen on Apple Podcasts Listen on Spotify

Kyle Roof, SEO consultant, patent-holder, product developer and trainer, is here to dispel a myth. People may believe that high-ranking pages in Google equate to the best content, but in reality, the Google algorithm boils down to math -- without human intervention. So it isn't necessarily the best content that wins, it's the most optimized-for-Google content that wins. (Case in point - check out the presentation link below in which Kyle presents how he boosted a site to a page one ranking using mostly lorem ipsum text). 

This of course doesn't mean that fresh, quality content isn't important to converting prospects to customers. But it is clearly a call-to-action for marketers to spend time analyzing and testing SEO tactics on key pages. 

Kyle points to four key areas within a page that Google scans to determine ranking for a keyword or phrase. By just focusing here, companies may see a significant boost. Throughout the episode, he also provides pointers on how to research competitors and use SEO analysis software tools for more insight and direction. 

When looking to supplement some of the popular SEO tools with specifics for page optimization, Kyle and his team developed their own algorithm which has evolved into the software tool PageOptimizer Pro. They also offer SEO training through a program called Internet Marketing Gold.






On today's episode, I brought on an SEO expert to talk about Google's algorithm and how it really boils down to math and how understanding what Google is looking for helps you to optimize key pages on your website for search. He also talks about how to conduct competitive analysis in a way that helps you move up in search rankings and know where you should try for better rankings and where you should maybe focus efforts in different areas of your site. Let's do this.

Welcome to Content Marketing Engineered. Your source for building trust and generating demand with technical content. Here is your host, Wendy Covey.

Hi, and welcome to Content Marketing, Engineered. On each episode, I'll break down an industry trend, challenge, or best practice in reaching technical audiences. You'll meet colleagues, friends, and clients of mine who will stop by to share their stories. I hope that you leave each episode feeling inspired and ready to take action. Before we jump in, I'd like to give a brief shout out to my agency, TREW Marketing. TREW is a full service agency located in Beautiful, Austin, Texas, serving highly technical companies. For more information, visit

And now on with our podcast. Hi, everyone and welcome to another episode of Content Marketing, Engineered. I'm joined today by Kyle Roof, and he has many titles. Let me run through them here. He's the co-founder of PageOptimizer Pro. He's the lead SEO at the High Voltage SEO agency, and he's the co-founder of Internet Marketing Gold. That's a lot of hats. Welcome to the show, Kyle.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

You bet with all these different things that you're doing. Tell me, just what is the day in the life of Kyle Ruth?

Well, a big part of it is spent on the software. I spent a lot of time on that, making sure that the algorithm is working like it should be working and we're getting features out. A lot of day is spent actually preparing for podcasts like this. And that's kind of what a lot of Internet marketing goal does for me. I have courses there and we test Google's algorithm, and so there's a lot of speaking and stuff like that. So there's a lot of prep time, and then I get in on the strategy sessions for the agency.

I don't really talk with clients anymore, but I do see kind of a higher level things of what's going on and kind of help the team implement or set the strategy that then goes and gets implemented.

Got it. But in everything that you do, obviously, the common thread is SEO. And I noticed to the extent that when I looked you up on LinkedIn, you had something really interesting on your personalized LinkedIn address, like the URL. You have SEO at the end of that. So did I just pick up on an SEO hack tiles? Yeah.

I think the team is in charge of my LinkedIn, but I think that was done to gain the LinkedIn algorithm because it's a pretty simple algorithm. So I'm sure that's exactly why we did that.

Yeah. Well, I'm trying to be observant of SEO hacks, as you often encourage marketers to do. And I'm sure that will be a key theme of today's interview. But before we jump into that topic, I have to ask. So again, I'm like, stalking your LinkedIn here, and I see that. Wait. Okay. This guy earned a lot of and now he's an SEO expert. So there's got to be an interesting story behind that. Yeah.

So I was an attorney. I am an attorney, but I was a trial attorney. I was in court every day, and I did criminal defense and divorce, custody and support. And after four years, I burnt out and decided I would rather chew on shards of broken glass than do one more divorce. And so I did what most people do. And I moved to South Korea, and we're all doing that.

It's crazy.

To see really kind of process when you go from that to SEO. But I decided to take one year off and just not worry about it and find the easiest job I could. And that was teaching English. And that one year, Sabbatical turned into five. And then while I was there, I started a business. And in starting that business, I had to build a very complex website. And I built a team. And so I had to go through a lot of devs. We built the team. And then I realized, you know what?

I could probably general contract websites and why not? So that's what I started doing. I brought my brother into business. He does web design development. And then I got the bright ideas. Like, you know what? We've got all these Indian freelancers. Let's go to India and open up a company there. That's what we did. And we rented this unit. It was on the first floor was the business. And on the second floor were apartments. I was not Indian at the time. My brother was there, and we were told you're going to get a shakedown from the police.

And sure enough, there's a knock on the door. My brother answered it. It's the police. And they said, we need to see your business papers. He shows the papers. They're like, These are the wrong papers. And he's like, okay, kind of how much do you want? And they put handcuffs on him and threw him in jail. And he's now talking to the chief of police. And he's like, These could be the right papers. I don't know. But you have two choices. You can leave town tomorrow or you can sit in jail and wait for the Magistrate to come.

And my brother's like, Well, when does the Magistrate come? And the police chief? I don't know. I'll leave town tomorrow. So he runs back to the office. Our employees are scattered because obviously they don't want to be involved in this. He gradually, can we get them out of India? And we're hemorrhaging clients because we have these clients, we have no employees. So my brother goes, I can take these four clients and service them. And I don't code. And so we had just taken on these SEO contracts.

That was another bright idea that I had where we could we're building these websites for these people we could charge, I don't know, like, $100 a month. And the people that we hired to do the SEO are obviously gone.


I had invest about $30,000 into this. And this was the time of my life when I had about $31,000, right. And in order for me to pay the rent next month, I had to learn SEO that day to keep those clients. And that's what I did. I was like, we got to sort this right now. That's what I went on. It turned out I was pretty good at it and got quite good at it. And then I was able to kind of hang my shingle out to get other SEO clients and was able to get them.

And then something that was frustrating me early on was, Is this a ranking factor? Should I be doing this, any kind of search in Google? Is this a ranking factor? And you get three, yeses, three maybes and three no's. And it's like, well, what does that mean? And then I realized that, oh, you know what? People aren't putting this answer. What they're doing is they're testing, they're running their own sites and then figuring it out. So then I was like, Well, how do you do that?

And then I kind of figured out a way to figure out how to test Google's algorithm if something is or is not a ranking factor. And then I went to a conference. I spoke at my first conference in 2015, and I was speaking on how to test and the method that I developed. This was a super high level conference. And I thought this would be more of a conversation. Like, this is how I'm testing, how are you guys testing? And it turns out no one was testing.

And that was very apparent about three minutes into the conversation or into my presence and be like, what do you do about this or what do you do about those? I go, nobody's doing this. And that's when I realized I was on to something. And so from there, then I started publishing my tests and people can see them. And I've created a testing group. I also now have a US patent on how to determine if something is or is not a ranking factor within Google's algorithm.

I'm pretty sure I'm one of the only people that have only people to have that type of a patent. And then, as you know, I also did the stunt where I ranked the page and Laura mixing. This is all using the whole thing. It's all kind of based on the same premise. The things I learned from the testing, and the big thing is that Google can't read. Google is not human. Google is amazing and powerful, but Google is not human, is not reading. And it's math because Google is an algorithm.

And if you give the algorithm the math that it wants, you can do very well. Obviously, you need to write good content to satisfy the user that you want somebody to do what you want them to do something when you come to their pages. But when it comes to ranking, that's a whole other thing. And that's a very math based thing. And that's been kind of what I've taken into, like, my on page tool, the agency, and then also the testing group.

You're kind of talking the love language of engineering companies here. You're talking about testing and analytics. So even if they're marketers listening, all of us are working in these highly technical companies that value data. So your approach and your methodology to utilizing tests, utilizing lots of data. It falls right in line with how these companies just work. And so I think it's an easier conversation to have with the executives.

Of people here. Just write good content, right? That's all you got to do. And that's not anywhere near the truth, because everybody has had that experience where, you know, you've written a piece of content that is better, especially within the technical space. And you're writing technical aspect. You know, this is better than what's on page one. And you're not on page one. You realize instantly that it's not about writing good content. It must be something else. And that other thing, it is math. It is a very math based concept.

Yes, and no, I would never tell someone. It's just as simple as good content to me. That's the same as. Oh, but our product is better. Why are people buying it? The specs are better. Well, there might be some other factors involved here.

Exactly right.

So do you find that the typical marketer out there have some outdated or incorrect assumptions of how Google works.

Most of them think that Google makes value judgments. What is on page one? Google has made the assessment like this is better that it's a value judgment. Google has made this assessment based on this must be the thing that is best or this piece of content is the best. And that's the biggest thing you have to overcome with other marketers or with clients. They get hurt when their page is not on page one because Google has judged me poorly. And it's not that they think the Google thinks that the product or the service is not where it's at.

What's on the page is the issue.

Okay, well, I know everybody's on the edge of the seat as an I to hear what are some of the first steps marketers should take when looking to improve their Google rank. I mean, we're all trying to do it right. I want to improve. I want to get up higher in the rankings. Where should I start?

Well, one thing that's important to understand is that there are places on a page that Google looks for certain terms. There are three types of terms that Google is looking for. Your exact keyword, the thing that people are typing in to Google, variations of that keyword or phrase match very close synonyms of that phrase or that particular keyword, and then contextual terms in the industry they're called LSI and old school. Seos really hate that term, and they're right. It is a very lazy term, but it is what people use.

So I think they kind of need to get over themselves on that. But we're talking about things you give context and meaning. So those are the three things that Google is looking for and looking for them in very specific places on the page. Not all those places are equal. Some carry more weight than others. And one of the biggest things, if you're coming right out of the gate, what should I do? There are four places that carry the most weight on a web page, and that is your title tag.

That's the title that search engine see. It's often called the meta title, your H one. That is the title that humans see. And you should only have one of those within paragraph, text or lists or tables. That's the content that is on your page. And last thing is within your URL. So whatever you have pasta. Com, those are the four top places. And so if you're building a page from scratch, here's the dirty secret of SEO. If you put your target keyword in those four places, you've probably done 60% of SEO right then.

And there don't overthink it. Just put it in those places. Now it gets a lot more Mathy after that. But to be honest with you, that's when you're getting into more competitive terms, higher competition where you really need to get into some of the nitty gritty. But people really want to overthink SEO, but do not put your keyword in those four places. I give one caveat if you have a page that's ranking pretty well. A page that has some age, don't change your URL if you realize.

Oh, you know, we don't have our keyword in the URL.

Don't change that, because when you change your URL, it's working right.

When you change the URL, you're giving Google a brand new page. So you don't want to do that. But if you're building a page that's brand new, it's not ranking very well or a page that hasn't been built yet. Make sure you've got it in there. But leave establish pages as is. And then look at your title tag, your age one and the paragraph text.

Yeah. So you mentioned context, and so obviously the trend today used to be. We have these short pages that lead to other pages. Now we've moved to these long scrolling pages that try to be more comprehensive on a subject. Is that a good example of providing context and freezing around keywords?

It's not like an either or where you need to write a shorter page, or you need to write a longer page. The best approach is to look at what Google is rewarding. Look at the pages that Google currently likes, and so you do the search. Look at your competitors and you'll see maybe sometimes those are shorter or even like product type pages. Sometimes you'll see their product category pages. Sometimes you'll see their long or form articles. You want to give Google the page that it's expecting, and that's the best approach in that.

So I wouldn't do it as an either or shorter than longer. I would do it as what is Google expecting for this particular keyword? And then I would give Google the page that it wants.

Interesting. Okay. When you're updating your site and you're trying to optimize and give Google what at once, you also want to obviously make sure you're giving the humans looking at your page a good usability experience. And we all remember Gosh, the keyword stuffing and how awful that was. So how do you recommend marketers balance those two goals?

Well, the keyword stuffing, as I mentioned, those top four places that's only putting your keyword in four places. And by and large, that's probably all you need for most keywords, depending on what you're talking about. But a lot of them that's about it. Maybe a couple more times. The variations so very close synonyms a lawyer for attorney or phrase match, purple Frisbee. And you've got purple Frisbee or purple and Frisbee and best. And those kind of words on their own are top. Those do a lot of the heavy lifting for you, and they keep you from doing keyword stuffing, and they end up helping you write better content because you're not saying that's purple Frisbee over and over and over again.

You're doing the phrase match of it, and that's a much better approach. Google likes and humans like it as well. The one thing that I would add to that, though, I think to what you were talking about with the longer form content, creating pages that support your target page are critical. One of the big concepts right now is topical authority or topical coverage, and you don't necessarily need to get that all on one page. Usually a very good approach is to take what would be a section on the page and that becomes a supporting piece of content.

And you link up to your target page and then within a cluster that's quite related, you link all those to each other and you link them all back up to your target page. What ends up happening is those things. They can rank on their own and get the right type of traffic. And usually they can rank with no SEO just with that phrase or that term, or maybe a question within the title tag with the H one. And then all of a sudden your authority starts to raise within Google because Google is not ranking for so many more keywords.

I think that's a better approach than thinking about. We need to write an article that's this long. Even if you're doing a long term article, I would do it a certain length. And then after that, I take portions of it and I create supporting articles out of that.

Absolutely. I agree. We're calling those pillar pages, but same thing. It's kind of like here's your top level page on a subject or a theme. And then here's all these supporting pages that you can go to learn more. We're also finding that having an FAQ section where you're trying to go for that phrase match and link to blog articles is performing very well.

Love it.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think we're in line there. How long does it take for an optimized page to move up in the rankings? So say, I've created this, done my research, done this perfect page. Is it like next day? I assume not.

Well, one of the factors that depends on is how much authority your site has and how difficult that particular term is. One thing that I've really gotten into is determining what your natural tier is. This is something where Google. If you launch a page, Google will put you on page one, page two without any effort, because you launch a piece of content that is within your natural tier. You've seen this before. Everyone's on this, you launch a page and you hit page two with no word and you think you're just an SEO God, and then you do it for something that's very similar and like, oh, man, and you can't crack the top 100.

The difference between those two is that one was in your natural tier, and one wasn't. And the idea is that you can still win with that other one, but it requires boosts to take you out of your natural tier and move you up. And those boosts are often backlinks or other types of signals that are outside of your page or more intense on page. For example, the problem with boost is that when Google changes things, what happens is Google doesn't penalize you when an update happens, Google just removes the boost, and then you just move back down to where you belong.


So a key point is to identify where your tier is and then post content within that tier so that you naturally move up by gaining traffic from Google with relatively new SEO. So that when updates happen, when changes happen, when somebody was giving you a backlink and that just page just goes away, the link rot is what it's called not through no fault of your own, but the idea is that then you don't take the hit. The idea is that you have a little blip, but because most of your traffic or a good chunk of your traffic was based off of basically no SEO, just posting content with your natural tier.

And then as you move up tiers, you can post content that is more competitive to get more traffic, and you can kind of gradually move up those tiers. And then you really don't have to worry about any Google updates or any changes in Google or anything like that. And your site will really start rocking.

So how do you determine what your natural tier is? Is that stack ranking? What's doing? Well, what's performing well and what are the commonalities of those pages?

That's a great way to do it, another way to do it. And this comes from a guy named Chris Carter, and you can search Builder Society SEO with no resources. He has a great article on this, and I think that's a good starting point. But the idea is that it's based on how much traffic Google is giving you now. So if Google is giving you between 51 hundred clicks a day, you can go after keywords with low competition that are 50 to 100 for a month. And the idea is that you can write a piece of content and post it.

And you should rank page one, two, three quite quickly, and then you know you're posting in the correct tier. If you are posting those types of keywords and you're not in page one, two, three quite quickly by quickly. I mean, a month or two. If that doesn't happen, then you need to come down a notch. In terms of the volume, the monthly volume for those particular keywords, and you can find your tier and then you'll see it start to click.

You're probably getting more competitive, less competitive. And I think that's very relevant in this industry because people can optimize that long tail. The long tail keywords is still very much alive when it comes to these engineers, Googling very specific issues or technical challenges, whatever it is.

Well, we see that all the time, because when you think about spec pages that have the product, the skew or the product Identifier that's just like all kinds of digits, those are easy to win. Those are very low competition. You do a bunch of those, though, and your site performs very well because you can put that into some sort of tool. It will tell you that zero search volume and you're like, is that a waste of time? They're not definitely do them, even though there's zero search type terms within your technical thing purview.

But it also shows that you have topical coverage for what you're talking. All the products are related to each other. So when somebody searching for that particular thing, Google knows there's a chance somebody can find it here.

The aggregate will do well. And then you'll get into your higher volume searches. Exactly.


Okay. Interesting. So when you're doing this research, you mentioned looking at competitors. Are there some particular things to pay attention to?

Perhaps one of the biggest things to pay attention to is how your competitors are phrasing the target term. So something like, Should I use this? Should I use it this way, or should I use it that way? And the idea is, you can see what Google likes again. Don't overthink it. Don't overthink Google, or don't try to amuse Google. Google wants something like that. See what Google actually likes. So do the search a certain way and then see if you can see that within the title Tags what is displayed in the SERPs.

And you might not know this. But about three weeks ago, Google announced they're changing titles. They're changing it to what they think is most relevant. Well, that's beautiful. Because then if Google changes a title because you can see what somebody wrote as their title, and you can see what we will change it to. That is a massive insight into what Google actually likes. And so for your particular target term, I would go with the one that Google changed to. Google seems to prefer it this way, right.

As long as it's not, it still makes technical sense and all of that. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. You also mentioned site authority, page authority. And, of course, back in the day, this had a lot to do with external sites linking to you. How many pages you have on your site? What are some other ways site authority has evolved over the years?

What I'm seeing more now is this has actually been a truism for a while, but I think there was a trend for a minute to prune your site. But what I'm seeing now is larger sites perform better almost across the board. The bigger the site, the better it seems to do. I wouldn't necessarily game it where. Okay, I'll just spin 5000 pages up with garbage on them and put them in. It's probably not the right approach, but a strategy where you are continuing to post content on a very regular clip so that you are growing out your site.

And that gives you more. What I'm finding is sites that are ranking for more keywords do better than sites that are ranking for fewer for those target terms for those main money terms. So a site that's ranking for 20,000 keywords going after four terms is going to do better than sites ranking for 2000. Keywords going for the same four terms. And really the easiest way to do that the safest way to do that the way that is white hat. So you don't really have to worry about backlinks is posting relevant content at a very steady clip that shows your site fresh as well.


Having that steady cadence. Okay.

When Google is coming to crawl your site, it's seeing new things all the time. And then it's crawling through the interlinking you have that you set up a nice little silo or virtual silo, and it can see that relationship between all those pages. It can see the relationship to a target page. That's the right approach, for sure. Yeah.

So companies will come to us on occasion and say, Well, we have these two business units, and they're completely different personas. One is not going to be a reference to the other. So we want to have two websites for them. What would be your advice, Kyle?

Well, if the technical person is searching one way and then the layman is searching another way, I could see doing that. But again, I would see if Google sees it that way, where somebody does the technical search and the layman search. It's the same page showing up. And if it is, then you might want that all in one side. I would say it often comes down to how much budget and resources you have, because maintaining two sites is twice the budget and twice the resources. So if you have a $2000 budget, I would spend $2,000 on one site rather than $1,000 on two sites.

To be perfectly honest, unless they were, like, super easy terms on their own.

In making this site, like you said, the more content, the more fresh it is, the bigger site it does better. So I think that part it's very difficult to do, cutting your effort in half, cutting your size in half.

I feel like it would have to be so different, just so absolutely different. I would imagine the person in that dilemma is not the one that actually has. It's so rare. I would probably put it on one side.

Yeah. Okay. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. I want to talk about Page Optimizer Pro. So you started your own software to help aid marketers with SEO. Why did you do that? What was the catalyst?

We were using another tool for our own page, and they kept changing it. I hated that. I was like, you know what? I'll just build my own, goddamn it. And that's what we did. That's kind of what came down to internally just for the agency. We wrote an algorithm, and we were using Google Sheets first Excel into Google Sheets and showed some friends of mine some SEO friends. I was like, do you like this? Does this look good? And they're like, yeah, we pay you money for that.

And Google Sheets only goes so far. And then our CTO. She was like, you know what? I think I can learn Python. And I was like, of course you can. You can't. And so she goes out and it takes her about three weeks. She learns Python. And then she writes the original script for it. And then we built a small little thing we threw on the back end of our agency site and just gave away for free where somebody put in their email address and a little bit information.

We emailed them a sheet and that took off. And so then we paid a developer to take our little script, our Python script, to develop it out and turn it into a SAS tool. And then that was in 17 is when we were going for free 2018, when we started charging an hour three years into that. And it's been a lot of fun. It's going really well.

Good. What does it do? What does it help marketers do?

So it's just an on page tool and it's only focused on page elements. And the idea is that we do edge analysis. We have our own proprietary algorithm. We aren't using APIs, so we're not giving, like, averages. What we're doing is we're looking at the landscape and saying, okay, here's where you could get an edge, because there are times when you might want to do the same as your competitors. There are times when you might want to do a little bit less. There are times you might want to do a little bit more in terms of your term usage.

So that exact keyword. It's variations. It's the contextual terms. We have all those within there and then the places where you should put them approximately how many times. And that's what the tool does. So it evaluates your page and says, okay, increase here and here in these places. And that gives your page the best opportunity to rank. Well, because really, SEO is a game of probability. You need to put yourself in the best chance for success. And the idea of the tool is that it does that it puts your page in the best chance for success.

Yeah. You know what's interesting is I'm listening to you. It struck me that the types of marketers that are focused on creating the best content and working on strategy, and maybe the creative and region aren't necessarily the best people in your company to do this analysis and really be very analytical about it. It's almost like a different personality, if you will. Different skill sets.

Some people look at the tool and hate it. They find it very constricting, but they see it freeing, like, oh, this is all I have to do. There are certain people that the mindset will not work for this at all.

Right, that's fair. We're all created different. I mean, man, math. I run away. I hear that word.

I'm not good at school math at all, but statistics and probability. That's where I kind of excel. And that's all that we're doing. But I agree with you when I hear math, I think like trigonometry or calculus, and I'm just like, but I do math every day.

Turns out I can dig out on some statistics, too. Right.

We all like stats and probability. I think I think that's where we live. And that's what Pop is. The math there is that kind of math. I think if you like stats and probability, you'll probably like this kind of math.


All right.

I'm going to check it out. So are there other research tools that you find are important for the marketer when they're doing SEO research or trying to optimize their site? Sure.

I mean, you need something to do kind of the overarching analysis. Like I said, Pop is just cute on one thing, and we're priced at a point where you don't have to make a decision between two tools. It's a companion tool because let's say you use Maas or Ahrefs or SEMrush or whoever you like. And they've got maybe some sort of on page type deal. They're just giving you averages. They're just giving you general best practices or you like, Yoast or something like that. That's not really an on page tool because it just gives you a green dot, and it's a general best practice.

So you should have some of those tools where you are doing kind of comprehensive competitive analysis. You're doing link analysis and doing those sorts of things. You're doing a tool for site crawls, whether that's one of the big ones, you're using something like site bulb or something like that or Screaming Frog for audits. So those tools are something you need. And then the idea is that Pop comes in as a companion tool. That's helping you with your on page for those target pages, for those ones that you're really spending a lot of time doing the research on and writing and optimizing and doing all that.

That's what Pop is for those particular pages.

Oh, I appreciate the clarification. That makes a lot of sense. Well, we're almost out of time here, but I want to make sure that our listeners and viewers know about the Rhinoplasty story. So if you could just give a teaser for that and then in the show notes, I'll put a link to your presentation of it. Sure.

It's a public competition done in a Facebook group called SEO Signals Lab, and it was to ring for the term rhinoplastyplano. Rhinoplasty is a no job and Plano is right outside Dallas, and it was a sprint. You have 30 days. You had to have a fresh domain so you couldn't have done anything to it. And then after that, you can do whatever you want. And the team with the best ranking site wins. I felt I had a pretty strong team behind me at high voltage, and I was like, let's do our handling.

So myself and 27 other professionals entered with the sprint. We end up taking fifth, which wasn't bad. We were on page nine, though. I think the winner was on page eight, but about two weeks later, we hit page one without doing any other work to it. And then about two weeks after that, we went to number one, organic and number one in the maps, and people really lost their minds. And the reason they lost their minds is because we did the site entirely. Laura Mixer And then we did the math.

The math you need for Rhinoplasty plan for the exact keyword for its variations, for its conceptual terms. And then we crossly copied and pasted those terms into the Lore Ipsum in very specific places and showing that it is math based. Google can't read Google isn't reading the Lorem IPS and getting a lot of value out of that. Google is looking for specific terms in specific places, a certain amount of time, and that's where we're able to demonstrate.

So it was a bit of a stake through the heart as a content marketer when I heard this story. But then the more I dug in and heard your methodology and specifically, the type of business it made sense in a very powerful example of the power of this algorithm. So I encourage everybody to go take a look at that talk that you gave on and it still works.

It still works.

Wow. Good. Well, Kyle, where can people connect with you and your agency and product and learn more?

Sure, if they go to Kyleroof. Com, my agency is on there and my tool is on there and the community where I do my tests, my courses are on there as well, so that's probably the easiest place to go. They can also, of course, go to page Optimizer Pro. Hang out there internetmarketing gold. But Kyleroof dot com is pretty easy and all my stuff is there.

All right. Very good. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Kyle.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Thanks for joining me today on Content Marketing Engineers for show notes, including links to resources, visit truemarketing. Comprodcast. While there, you can subscribe to our blog and our newsletter and order a copy of my book Content Marketing Engineers also love your reviews on this podcast, so please when you get a chance, subscribe and leave me a review on your favorite podcast subscription platform. Thanks and have a great day.








Wendy Covey

Wendy Covey is a CEO, a technical marketing leader, author of Content Marketing, Engineered, one of The Wall Street Journal’s 10 Most Innovative Entrepreneurs in America, and she holds a Texas fishing record. She resides in a small Hill Country town southwest of Austin, Texas, where she enjoys outdoor adventures with her family.

About TREW Marketing

TREW Marketing is a strategy-first content marketing agency serving B2B companies that target highly technical buyers. With deep experience in the design, embedded, measurement and automation, and software industries, TREW Marketing provides branding, marketing strategy, content development, and digital marketing services to help customers efficiently and effectively achieve business goals.