Enjoy Better Conversations and Unlock Possibilities with Patti DeNucci

Find out why conversations are so important to our health, careers, and personal growth, and learn practical tips to becoming a better conversationalist.

Two-time book author and former technology marcom professional Patti DeNucci wants to inspire you to improve (and enjoy!) conversations, whether those take place in a social or professional setting. I couldn't think of a better time to spend some mental energy on this topic, with a post-pandemic re-emergence into face-to-face gatherings, or for some, hesitation to even engage IRL. 

In Patti's new book, More Than Just Talk: An Essential Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Enjoy Better Conversations, you'll learn why conversations are so important to our health, careers, and personal growth. She walks you through barriers and obstacles to good conversations and calls us out on some excuses we've probably all used to avoid social situations. 

In the episode, you'll hear how setting intentions and preparation will provide focus and confidence. We also touch on several concepts from Patti's "Conversation Toolkit" including my favorite, becoming a "Possibilitaritan." 

Having better conversations includes a healthy dose of listening, and Patti explains what prevents people from actively listening and how to improve this key skill.

One of my favorite tips comes at the very end of the episode where Patti tells us how to perform the "sniff test" and warns us to make sure this is done in private. Be sure to listen for that nugget!

More Than Just Talk follows on the heels of Patti's first book, The Intentional Networker.

Resources

• More Than Just Talk: An Essential Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Enjoy Better Conversations, by Patti DeNucci
• The Intentional Networker: Attracting Powerful Relationships, Referrals and Results in Business, by Patti DeNucci 
• Patti's website
• Patti on LinkedIn
• Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ, by Daniel Goleman
• The Art of Possibility: Transforming Professional and Personal Life, by Rosamund Stone Zander and Benjamin Zander

Transcript:

Think about a recent conversation that you had. How did that conversation flow? Did you do more talking or more listening? And that conversation, did it leave you inspired, drained, excited? Were you ready to take action over some new ideas that you heard about? Well, look, conversations are a part of all of our daily lives, or at least they should be, according to many studies that you'll hear about today that talk about how conversations have a direct impact on health and longevity, and they also have a huge impact on career growth. So today I've brought on an author of a new book on how to have strong conversations. And this interview, as well as her book, will give you ideas that you can put into practice today. Let's do this.

Welcome to Content Marketing, Engineered, your source for building trust and generating demand with technical content. Here is your host, Wendy Covey.

Hi, and welcome to Content Marketing, Engineered. On each episode, I'll break down an industry trend, challenge, or best practice in reaching technical audiences. You'll meet colleagues, friends, and clients of mine who will stop by to share their stories. And I hope that you leave each episode feeling inspired and ready to take action. Before we jump in, I'd like to give a brief shout out to my agency, TREW Marketing. TREW is a full service agency located in beautiful Austin, Texas, serving highly technical companies. For more information, visit trewmarketing.com. And now on with our podcast. Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Content Marketing, Engineered. I'm here with author Patty DeNucci. Welcome to the show, Patty.

Thank you, Wendy. What a great invitation. Oh, my gosh.

I was thrilled to have you on. I read your first book. I've read your newest book, and I can't wait to talk about it. So this is going to be a fun conversation. Well, first, Patty, let's start with what is the book?

What is the book? The book? Well, I'll just show it to you. It's called More Than Just Talk, and it's the essential guide for anyone who wants to enjoy better conversation.

Anyone?

It's my second book. Yes. Anyone. My previous book, The Intentional Networker, kind of had a business slant to it. This one has a more universal appeal, I think. Any age, any industry. Retired, not retired. Stay at home mom, engineers, artists, you name it. If you want to have better conversations, this is your book.

And I can't help but think of the beautiful timing of this book. And I'll preface this by saying I have young adult children and they're 22 and 19. And so they went through this formative time during COVID and kind of retracted on their social skills. And I just can't even imagine you started writing this pre pandemic, I suppose.

Yes, I sure did.

And then the pandemic hit. And how did that shape the way you approached this book?

Oh, man. Well, I started working on this book, thinking about it, fiddling around with it after the Intentional Network came out, which was way back in 2011, that's twelve years ago, and people were asking me more questions. Well, I know that networking is good and I should be more purposeful and intentional, but there's a lot of other issues I have, like how do I get a conversation going? How do I escape from a conversation I'm not enjoying or from someone who just won't stop talking? And so I was thinking about this probably as early as maybe 2012, and I, you know, just coming up with chapters and ideas and collecting information, researching, reading, reading, reading and talking to a lot of people, of course. And I wanted this book to come out, oh my gosh, probably in like 2015 or 16. And books for me, books don't get born until they're ready. And, you know, the pandemic hit 2020. And I had planned to take 2020 off anyway to finish the book because it was driving me crazy. It was getting, you know, getting in the way of other things and the pandemic and just the political world and just what's going on everywhere.

The timing of this, all that said, the timing of this was perfect. It couldn't have been better, really. It couldn't have been.

I really do. Well, I just heard you use the word intention several times, so to have some fun. And this is part of your book as well. I know that you're big on setting your vision and intentions for anything that you do, whether it be a presentation or a meeting or an event or even look at us on a podcast.

Here we are.

So, Patty, what intentions did you set for our conversation today?

I set the intention I'm so glad you asked that question. I set the intention that we were going to have fun, that it was going to be a little bit of a blend of purpose and possibility, perfect and imperfect, that I'm always open to possibilities of you asking me a question no one's ever asked me before and that I have to think about briefly or else just come straight from my heart. I mentioned fun already, didn't I? But most of all, I want this conversation to be helpful and inspiring to the people who take the time to listen. Sometimes I feel like an airline pilot or a flight attendant saying, I'm so glad you chose to spend your time with us today. You could have chosen to be somewhere else. But I'm really here to serve other people.

Yeah. And at the end of the day, time is our most precious resource, right? And so to have this time be helpful and inspirational to someone else is exactly my intention to. And heck, if we can have fun along the way, and I know we will, Patty, then that's all good, too. Let's do that. And I think a good place to start and I do this often on our podcast is to just talk a little bit about your career journey and what led you to becoming an author.

Oh, boy. If someone had told me this, I would have said that they were crazy. I'll try to go through this really quickly. I grew up in an entrepreneurial family. My dad was the local Chevrolet dealer in a small mining town in northern Minnesota. I mean, it's up there. It's freezing right now up there. I'm glad to be here in Austin, Texas. I went to college in Wisconsin, a little branch of the University of Wisconsin system called Stout that everybody makes fun of. When in doubt, go to Stout. But it was a fantastic school. Harvard of the Midwest, small little school, about 80 00 10,000 students. It has fantastic programs of all kinds. I studied clothing, textiles and design, of all things, and minored in art. But the major was flexible enough that I could study writing and journalism, I could study marketing, I could study business, as well as the art and the design and industry of all kinds. I followed a boy to Texas back in the ended up getting a job in a marketing communications department of a high tech company. I mean, when you come to Austin, you can't really help it.

You end up in high tech one way or the other. I worked there for a little while, decided the corporate life was not for me, and then went to work at a startup PR and advertising agency that specialized just in high tech. Had a blast there. Learned from an incredible boss who was just the most fabulous mentor. Learned about more about business and communications and all that. Went out on my own in the late 80s because it was time to think about being a mom. And I wanted to balance work and family in my own way. Did a bunch of marketing communications, opened my own freelance talent agency because I was getting so much business that I wanted to share it with others and make a little something. And then people started asking me to come speak. A million people wanted to have coffee with me, to keep asking me questions, picking my brain, which is a phrase I'm not fond of. And I thought, man, maybe it's time to write a book. So that was what got the Intentional networker going then that launched my speaking career professionally, and I've just never looked back.

I think anyone who's in their early career right now should really think that the road is going to take you into some interesting places and you should be open to that. And even if you're later on in your career, I think another message would be, it's never too late. I'm going to be 64 in April. It is never too late to start doing some really cool things and sharing your knowledge. I hope that was fast enough sorry. Yes, that's boring. Great.

And I think for our audience in particular, you understand their world and what they're doing and some of the challenges of being a mark home person in technology.

Absolutely. I mean, so many companies, especially in Austin, probably everywhere, were launched by engineers who had great ideas, and they had to build businesses, and sometimes they had to start wearing the marketing hat or the business development or sales hat, or the finance hat. And I worked with so many of those people. I mean, listen to this. This just blows my mind. I was writing about what they now call 3D printing. I was writing about that back in the, I want to say early ninety s. And I was also writing about touch technology. There were two companies here in the Austin area that were pioneers in that. I was writing about that, and we couldn't even imagine how that was going to be useful. But all that said, I understand introverts, I understand extroverts, engineers, artists. I've worked with so many different kinds of people, and I try to remember that when I'm putting things together, like programs and books.

Yeah. Well, I can tell that you very thoughtfully considered those types of personalities in your new book More Than Talk, because thank you. You discuss the introvert and the extrovert and how conversations aren't just for extroverts, and in fact, even talk about how extroverts sometimes get it wrong.

We all get it wrong. We all get it wrong. I mean, anybody who thinks they have the market cornered on conversation and if they think, oh, I naturally have the gift of gab, I really worry about those people, because the gift of gab is not the only gift that you can have when it comes to conversation.

For sure. Well, so out of all of those people, out of all those different personas, who did you write the book for?

That's a really good question. And you're not supposed to say, everybody okay. In my fantasy world, I wrote it for everybody. When you write a book, it's also you're leaving a legacy. And I'm writing it for someone like myself, 10, 20, 30, maybe even 40 years ago. I look around and here we are in this age of electronic devices, and I think our young people especially, are really good at their texting. They have some great presence on social media. But for example, I was at a department store the other day buying shoes, and the sales gal who was cute as a button, super helpful, she could not make eye contact with me, and she didn't greet me. She didn't say, how may I help you? I didn't feel like we had any kind of personal connection. I felt like I was dealing with a really cute robot. And I feel like they're not teaching social skills in school, and I don't think parents are teaching that to their kids. I was really blessed. My dad was super gregarious. Half the time. He was out and about having coffee with people. When I worked for him, I thought, dad, why are you never in the office?

Because he was out making relationships. We were running the business. He was out building the relationships. And my mom was more introverted, super gracious, very selective about her friends. And so to have these two slightly different role models in my life gave me an early start. I was really blessed to have that. Not everybody does.

Yeah. So you telling these stories right here, does two things. And so this is me taking your lessons from the book and applying them back. But one, you're an interesting storyteller. I love stories, but your book is filled with them, and they're simple illustrations of the concepts that you're trying to get across, and I love that. And it had me reflecting on recent conversations and what went well or what didn't. And I just think that's a really neat and interesting part of your thought.

And I'm constantly going back and reviewing, oh, my gosh, I could have asked better questions. I could have been a better listener. Why did I interrupt so much? So my book is for me, too. I don't know if we ever get the market cornered on this.

Yeah.

Honestly.

Well, one of the things that you talk about in the book is you give these stories of successful and unsuccessful conversations, but you also make a point of asking the reader, think of that conversation and how did you feel about that interaction? So there's a lot of talk of not just like, the analysis of what percentage of time did you talk versus listen, but also these feelings. So why so much talk about feelings in the book?

Because I think that's what shuts people down. For example, there's so many examples. I remember during the pandemic, one of my ways to stay sane was I went out, and I still do this. I go out walking every morning in my neighborhood, and I see a lot of neighbors. We at least wave to each other. There are people that won't even wave. And you can feel it when you're not acknowledged as a human being and you're close enough that you should have at least gotten a nod or a wave or something, even if they have their earbuds in. Give me something, a smile. I feel it, and I'm a feeler, so I admit that. But I've also been in conversations where and maybe this is something that applies to highly successful marketing people, highly successful engineers or business people. When we're really smart, sometimes we unintentionally make other people feel not so smart. Like when we dominate conversations or we get too technical or we start using cryptic acronyms. And that's just our language.

Language never happens.

We all know it does. But one of the little things you probably read was the smarter we are, often we're terrible listeners because we think we have it all figured out or we're in a hurry or we think it doesn't matter that other people. Oh, no one will notice that I've walked through the hallway of my office and I didn't say good morning to one single person. It matters. It definitely matters.

You have a part in the book where you talk about emotional IQ, which we've all heard, but then you talk about social IQ or social intelligence, and I found that term very intriguing. So what is that, and how does it impact you as a conversationalist?

Oh, boy, it's everything, I think. And here's the thing. Our IQ, our intelligence quotient is fixed. Our brain power is although I know some days I don't feel quite as smart as other days. It's certainly not as smart as I was when I was in my 20s. But social intelligence is our intelligence of how we are when we're around people, how we behave when we're around people, how we interact with them, how we respond and watch for social cues. And we start becoming socially intelligent as little kids when we go to daycare preschool. And we're starting to learn what works, what doesn't, in making friends and in having positive interactions. And social intelligence and also emotional intelligence, which is also a factor. Those can be improved. And I would say anybody who's interested in that read Daniel Goldman's books. They're kind of thick, they're kind of dense. But, oh, my gosh, I took one on a plane on the way to a conference a couple of years ago, and the thing is so highlighted, the pages are practically disintegrating. It's so fascinating. We can improve when people say, oh, I'm introverted or I'm shy or even I'm a little bit on the spectrum, these things can be improved.

But it's like I always use the analogy of push ups. If you wanted to get good at pushups, you have to do more push ups. I'm still terrible at push ups, but I try.

It's a great analogy. Even if you're not going to start doing push ups per se.

No, not right here. No, for sure.

Yes. Well, another thing that caught my attention in your book, and I'll have to give a shout out to Stephen Covey, my brother from another mother. But you talk about the four habits of becoming a sparkling conversationalist, and they were four PS.

Okay.

And there was one that's my absolute favorite that you called the possibilitarian. possibilitarian.

Possibilitarian. Isn't that amazing? There's actually just connected to someone on LinkedIn whose title is purely possibilitarian. It's like, oh, I want to know this person. I want to know what makes them tick, why they are so open. Yeah, being a possibilitarian. And I think that was inspired by I love giving shout outs to authors and books that I love, the Art of Possibility. Great book. If you're one of these people that has very concrete thinking or you feel like you're stuck, or you just want to be more creative and open. Read that book. It's by Rosamond Stone. Xander and Ben Xander. Ben xander's interviews and Ted Talks are amazing, too. But yes, knowing that when you go into a conversation, anything can happen, you can be purposeful, but you might hear that little piece of information or have that interaction. That was a surprise, being a little bit balanced. I'm around people sometimes who are very they want to know, okay, we want to talk about this. I have to figure this out. La but if we can maybe sandwich that with a little bit of possibilitarianism on the front end and then on the backside of a conversation, we've made this wonderful sandwich that is just so memorable.

So memorable, yeah. You also have not just a mention, but a whole chapter dedicated to authenticity, say a whole chapter, Patty. Why is that so important?

Well, it's kind of a short chapter. I don't know. Authenticity is so interesting. I was thinking about blog ideas before I got on with you, and I think when we can be authentic but there's a caveat to that. I think being real, first of all, is healthier for us. I remember those days early on in my career when I was really trying to be professional and very giant, to be impressive and all those things that are exhausting by the end of the day, I'd have to lay down on the sofa for an hour before I could even fix dinner. It's exhausting. I will balance that with we're also in an age where I think we are tempted to share too much information, or we think that authenticity means, well, this is just who I am, and we're not regarding other people's feelings, or is this something we had to talk about right now? Could this have waited? Was this the right time? Was this the right place? But I think authenticity means being true to who we are. And in order to be true to who you are, you have to know who you are.

And there's yet another great book out there called Insight by Tasha Yurek, and her research shows that a very small percentage of us truly know who we are. It's the project of a lifetime.

Next book right there, Patty.

Oh, gosh. Now, she covered it with her book. But it's so interesting when people can share with you their stories and they can be truthful to their opinions, and you can graciously say in a conversation, I don't know if I believe that, or, Gee, I need some time to think about that before I can say I agree with you or not. I think candor is part of that. But we're all these beautiful human beings, and where every single one of us is different, no one will ever be like us ever again. That's so beautiful.

It is. Absolutely. It's that possibilitarianism.

Yes.

Right there. Well, speaking of research and I know you did quite extensive research as part of this book, and you have lots of different sources and research studies that you cite. And one of them in your book is from Dr. Graham Bodie, and his research suggests that most of us are emotionally attuned to what a speaker is saying less than 5% of the time.

Yes.

Why are we listening? Why aren't we really actively listening and absorbing what someone is saying most of the time? What are our barriers?

I think a big one is listening is more complex than talking. And I'll try to make this quick because the book explains some of this listening. You're not only processing what's going on in your own head, your own emotions, your own thoughts, but you're also trying to take in what's being said. There's all kinds of inner dialogue going on there where you might be thinking, oh my God, how long is this going to take? Or this guy is such a whatever, or oh, that's really interesting. I want to add to the conversation. Listening is you're taking in processing their words, processing your words and fighting against the urge to express which is the talking. And I think that's why you'll sometimes run into a chatty introvert who is just like, there's so much happening that they have to release what is going on in their head. But yeah, listening is difficult. And I find myself even in an interview like this, you won't see my hands because I might be fidgeting seriously under my desk just to burn off a little energy to manage myself. But the smarter we are, the more active our brains are, the more we want to jump in.

And it's a skill again, it's the journey of a lifetime to really get good at listening.

Yeah, and I appreciate how in the book and I won't give away any spoilers here, but you talk about how to listen and how to go maybe deep in a conversation or how to broaden the topic, but you're staying with the same thread rather than just curveballing with your own story to take over the spotlight. So that really stuck with me, and I thought it was just a very practical tool.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. People are often come up to me and say, but I don't know what to say. And that's what inspired the title of the book more Than Just Talk is being a good conversationalist isn't just about talking and knowing what to say. It's about listening. But here's the thing when you're not sure what to say, if you listen, you will hear something. And you're doing a great job of this in this interview, you'll hear something that prompts a question. If you're curious, that was another skill to have in your conversation toolkit, is curiosity. If you're at the point where you don't care about other people, it's kind of over at that point. But you can listen and hear something and you can even say you said something a few minutes ago and you did this earlier. You said something a few minutes ago. Let's explore that more. So listening is sort of your secret weapon for a great conversation.

Patty, why should I bother, though? This sounds exhausting, right? I'm watching Emily in Paris right now. It's really fun. And lose outfits really get out there. And why bother? Engage.

Oh, that is such a big question. I'm an ambivalent, so I'm part introvert and my sweetie is out of town and I just got caught up on All Creatures Great and Small, but I'm actually craving a little bit of social time. So this is sort of fulfilling some of that. But why bother? Yes. It's so easy to just fall back on. I'm exhausted. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want an adult today. I don't want to be busy. Life is so hard.

I know what everybody's doing.

So people doubt. Yes, all those obstacles, because it contributes to our happiness. Introvert, extrovert, whatever, young or old, it contributes to our happiness. We literally have brain chemicals that you and I talking right now is making oxytocin flow through my veins. And from here I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to be so fired up. I'm going to see my friends. That's going to be a great day. So it's happiness. It's building community, building relationships, which we need relationships. Back when we were cave people, if we didn't have a tribe, we would not survive, literally. It's building our intelligence and creativity. It is impacting our health. I mean, if you want to live a long, vibrant, healthy life, even as you get older, it's still important to make new friends, to have conversations, to be interested in other people, to share and to teach people things. I want to say it's a matter of life and death, I really do at this point, and the research is compelling. Wall Street Journal just had yet another article last Saturday about the Harvard happiness study. I want to say, and it's like, how many years have they been doing this?

They've been doing this for decades, following people through their life. And the biggest contributor to a happy, satisfied life is relationships. Period. End of story.

Love that.

Yeah. And I would also say, I don't know if you knew this, and this is very Austin oriented, but Austin is considered one of the top 20 loneliest towns cities in the country.

Wow. I'm surprised to hear that.

A lot of people living alone, a lot of people choosing to stay in, play their video games, watch TV. Yeah, that makes me sad.

Well, how can your book help both those people who have the tendency to be the stay at home people that are intimidated by all this? And how can it help technical marketers, very specifically that are looking for jobs.

For the people that want to stay home. It starts out with the benefits on why you should do this. I mean, I tried to think of a logical argument on why is anybody even going to read this book? And it's because your happiness and health depends on it. Your career depends on it. I mean, social skills, being able to talk about things besides work makes you a more valuable employee and more likely to be promoted, because that's just part of being a business person, is being comfortable with people. There's just so many benefits, and there's a lot of techniques, there's a lot of reflection opportunities that you probably saw. These you could also use as discussions. If you have a group you want to gather at work, you could have a little lunch and learn and drag out a few of the exercises and do a little reflection, do a little discussion and talk about it. I think for technical marketers and boy, I was one of those more of a technical marketing communications person. I feel like it helps you understand other people, and it helps you practice how you relate to them with all kinds of practical ideas.

One of my favorites is if you're in a conversation that's just going on way too long, it's not that pleasant, it's boring, it's wasting your time. These three words, please forgive me, followed by whatever excuse you can come up with, real or imagined, is your ticket to walking away from that conversation. We don't have to stay and endure conversations that aren't helping us. Well, unless it's your boss, you're in trouble. I guess you have to sit there and take it. I think a lot of people just say, I don't want to get stuck with that person. It's so awkward. This will take the awkward out of and you'll have to apply it. You'll have to practice. You'll have to want to read it, for starters. And that's why I put in anyone who wants to have better conversation. If you don't want to, I can't.

Help you kicking and screaming for your book.

Yeah, it's really hard to share this information with people who just don't want to. Although I will quickly add, I was speaking at a conference, and one brave we were having a little discussion, people being authentic, and one lady got up. She actually stood up and she said, I don't like people. And first of all, I was shocked because I just don't get that. But secondly, I said, gosh, thanks for your bravery and authenticity. And I also said, if you want to talk about this some more after this, I'm happy to. I'm not a psychiatrist or anything, but I want to hear more about why that is. And maybe we can shift that. Maybe we can.

Well, Patty, where can people get this wonderful book, and how can they connect with you?

They can get both of my books. The. Intentional networker and more than just talk on Amazon. And I think once it's on Amazon, because of the way we print and distribute and all that, I think if you want it to order through a different company, you certainly could. Ingram is the big distributor, and they work with everybody. My ebook, there's ebooks for both of them. To more than just talk. One technology is a lot better now. It's a lot better than the other one, but Amazon. And then if you want to get in touch with me, go to Patty DeNucci. That's pattiden Ucci.com. Or you can also go to Intentionalnetworker.com and you can find me. And here's the thing. You'll get a very annoying pop up. I hate pop ups, but this was one time when I said I want to pop up. You can sign up to get a free chapter. In fact, you can get a free chapter of either book. You can get a copy of the Appendix of More Than Just Talk, which that sounds really boring. Why would I want the appendix? I'll tell you why you want the appendix, because it's a list of conversation starting questions categorized by setting and situation.

And there's some other resources, too, but I want this out there. I want people to start enjoying better conversations today and again. To take the awkward and the fear and the boredom and the time wasting out of I want you to have more conversations you want to be having and fewer of those you don't. Because, honestly, I'm the same way I don't have time for bad conversations anymore. Just don't.

Well, I forgot. I'm very motivated after reading your book, to express myself into one of those very social situations, like a conference where I don't know people, and just try out some of your ice breakers and ways in which you suggest you just overcome the fear of that situation, make.

It a quest, make it a fun project. And I think that's the part of it is we often just wander into these social situations, networking events, conferences. We have done no preparation whatsoever. We've picked out our outfits, we got our hair and our makeup going, and the guys have their beards trimmed and all that. And we've done nothing to ensure that we're going to at least attempt to have a good interaction and a good experience. So let's change that.

Yeah, go in with a plan and oh, my gosh, I can't believe I forgot to ask you about the sniff test.

The sniff test, of course, before we.

Explain what it is, of course we know that this is an area of concern related to grooming. However, I didn't know there were tools to I didn't either.

That's why when you start working on a book and you get down into the rabbit hole of research, you find things. It's like, this has to go in the book. Do you want me to explain what it is, please? It's for testing your own breath. Okay. Often we do this, and that's somewhat effective. But if you do this somewhere where no one can see you think you're a weirdo, lick your hand. Just do this and let it sit for a minute and then smell it. We've tried this out a lot, and it's like, UFTA, there's my Minnesota coming out. Oofta. I grew up northern Minnesota. You will smell what your breath smells like, and you know it's. Gosh. You know, let's brush, let's floss. Let's have a breath meant for crying out loud. I mean, I wish I'd bought stock and El toids because I carry them with me everywhere, but bad breath will let's not do that to each other.

Be authentic, but not that authentic.

Yeah, authentic is different than being inconsiderate. I guess that's the word I'm looking for.

Very good. Well, thank you for that and all your practical advice and your inspiration. I really enjoyed our conversation today.

Oh, me too, Wendy. Awesome.

All right, everyone, well, I will leave show notes for all of the resources that Patty described today, and thanks so much for being here. Thanks for joining me today on Content Marketing Engineered. For show notes, including links to resources, visit truemarketing. Compodcasts. While there, you can subscribe to our blog and our newsletter and order a copy of my book, Content Marketing Engineer. Also, I would love your reviews on this podcast, so please, when you get a chance, subscribe and leave me your review on your favorite podcast subscription platform. Thanks and have a great day.